Subject: Skydive Arizona BANS swooping. What should Skydive Chicago do?
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mattchristensonUser is Offline
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29 Mar 2007 12:34 PM Alert 

It’s been a little while since we’ve had a good safety debate on here recently, so I though I’d start one.

Anyone that reads the forums on dropzone.com has no doubt read that Skydive Arizona has banned turns over 180 degrees in their primary landing area.  This has cause a little bit of debate.  I haven’t traveled to Arizona and so I don’t know how much of an issue it was there; I don’t want to start a discussion about the Arizona ban here; my intention is to start a conversation between Skydive Chicago jumpers about what do to AT Skydive Chicago.

I want to start out by disclaiming that I am not an expert.  I have less than 200 jumps and have only been in the sport since 2004.  I’m pointing this out because while I’m doing work for Skydive Chicago and spend a lot of time on the forums here, it’s important that everyone understands that these are my opinions are that of a low time jumper, I am not by any means someone who makes any decisions on regulations. 

With plenty of other things to do, Rook isn’t very active on the forums, but I do know that he reads them.  The operators of Skydive Arizona mentioned that by banning these turns, they hoped to start a trend and would be in contact with other DZO’s in effort to lobby for an industry wide effort to help reduce the number of high-performance canopy related fatalities in the sport.  By posting your opinions on here, you have the ability to help influence any potential future regulations, or lack thereof.

Here are my personal comments:

Skydive Chicago has the largest landing area I’ve ever seen.  When I got here a few years ago, I learned that in order to land in the high performance area 1,500 jumps are required.  I thought this number was a little high, with a D license requiring only 500 jumps, 1,500 seemed to favor those who could afford to be out here every weekend, or staff.  After having been in the sport for a little while, though, I think that the 1,500 jump requirement is completely reasonable.

I don’t want to see us loose the high performance area right in front of the hangar for swooping.  I feel that Skydive Chicago has plenty of room for high performance landings to be done safely.

I have noticed though, that the 1,500 jump requirement is loosely enforced.  It is not uncommon that 300-500 jump jumpers will use this area.  On weekdays when loads are light and almost everyone knows each other and what kind of landings will be taking place – I don’t see a problem with this on slow days; I do however that think we could benefit by enforcing the 1,500 jump requirement more strictly during weekends.  This is really to protect low time jumpers from being tempted to land closer to the hangar without realizing the safety repercussions, more than it is to protect swoopers themselves.

We have a swoop pond now and plenty of space out near the pond for landings.  I think it would be a good idea to encourage people who are just learning how to swoop to stick to the grass in that area.  This keeps them far away from the general population, but still allows privileged experts the right to land in front of the hangar.  Sure - this means learning to swoop at SDC will mean a good amount of walking - but it does help protect the sport of swooping.

I remember the day of my first tandem skydive, one of the things that made the experience so awesome to me was watching the camera fliers swoop in right next to the hangar.

We have a huge year coming up.  The POPS record, the Freefly record, Summerfest, the cancellation of the WFFC is sure to bring more traveling skydivers this way, and who can forget the 2007 National Competitions…   This could just be the best year we’ve ever had.  During these events especially, I think it is important to make a visible effort to keep low time jumpers out of the high performance area.  Maybe we could implement some kind of wrist-band or legstrap band to make it easy to enforce?

To summarize.  I don't think we need to see any kind of a ban at Skydive Chicago, but I do think that a better job could be done to enforce the rules already in place.

Please take some time to post YOUR comments, and also post your experience level and any instructor certifications so that readers have a good idea of who’s giving them.

mwc

ntasker02User is Offline
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30 Mar 2007 7:47 AM Alert 
Being a very low jump number skydiver, I can't add much to the swoop vs. no-swoop debate. However, I think whatever rules we have in place regarding the high-performance landing area should be enforced AT ALL TIMES instead of maybe letting up during the week. Is it necessary? Probably not. However, Humans are generally conditioned to follow a routine. If we allow lower-jump people (like me) to land in the high-performance area, I think its setting a bad precedent.

Some of the basic things about our sport are glossed over or not mentioned during the student phase of learning the sport. Our AFP instructors do one hell of a great job, but you can't always remember to mention everything someone might need to know. I would hate to have people just off student status landing in the HP area anytime because they saw one of their other buddies do it during the week. I don't think its going too far to say things like this are happening even now.

Monkey see monkey do and all that :)

Just my thoughts...
Neil
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31 Mar 2007 11:15 AM Alert 
another opinion from a low level jumper (57 so far and been in the sport for a year and a half).

I do think having a seperate landing area for high performance is good. The 1500 jump rule I think is a little high but I am not the one who makes the rules. As far as fun jumpers swooping I think that should be left to the swoop pond area unless there is a competition going. I think one or two people swooping in the high performance area with the other experienced jumpers is still a hazard (maybe more of a controlled hazard). The only exception I put to this are the camera flyiers and instructors (why because they do have a job to do). Someone should not be landing in the high performance area if they do not meet the jump requirements. That wont change unless penalties are imposed for doing so. i.e.- first offense verbal warning - second offense grounded for an hour - etc, etc. - It also does depend on how many times a low level jumper lands in the high performance area. If it is something that happens repeatedly by a low level jumper then more needs to be done with that person.

These are just my opinions and ramblings... take them for what they are worth.

Allen
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15 Apr 2007 7:02 PM Alert 

As someone who has been in and survived  a low altitude canopy collision due to someone swooping through a regular pattern (not at Skydive Chicago) I have very strong feelings about this.

High perfomance landings (involving turns of 180 degrees or more) DO NOT MIX with a regular rectangular pattern.  I don't care how experienced the swooper may be - even very very experienced and skilled jumpers have been injured or worse in this scenario.  The landing area does not have to be busy - accidents have happened when only 2 jumpers were in the air!

There is no need for separate landing areas - separation in TIME will also work.  How the DZ chooses to work it out is up to them, but it needs to be worked out so both swoopers and non swoopers can do their thing without risk of collision, and THE RULES NEED TO BE ENFORCED.

johnnyzUser is Offline
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17 Apr 2007 10:42 AM Alert 

There are some very good points and ideas being raised here, but there’s a couple things I don’t agree with.

Matt’s suggestion that beginner swoopers should land near the swoop pond is a bad idea. Beginner swoopers tend to begin their turns at a much lower altitude that the more experienced swoopers under higher wing loadings and therefore have less time to adjust their turns after they have started it. The swoop pond area does not have many “outs” and more people would probably end up getting hurt.

I think that the high performance landing area should be just that… A “High Performance” landing area… Regardless of jump numbers. Somebody flying a 220 Manta that has 2500 jumps fits into faster traffic about as well as someone fresh off student status… Not very well.

It would be nice if people doing straight in landings would take it just a little bit south. I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be a minimum jump requirement to land in the HP area, I’m saying that people that have the jump numbers and aren’t doing HP landings don’t mix well with those that are swooping. (I’m not saying… I’m just saying… Ha ha ha) This is 2007 and swooping isn‘t going anywhere anytime soon.

The regular jumpers here at SDC seem to be pretty smart compared to many drop zones I’ve visited. We get to know each other and how we fly our canopies. If I’m trying to set up for a 270 in front of the hanger and I see someone that could be a hazard, I abort the swoop and land safe. There’s always next time, right?

People need to get REAL canopy coaching more than they think. When I was first learning to swoop I bounced hard on more that one occasion and feel very lucky to have gotten away without getting seriously hurt or worse… Too many others weren’t so lucky. It’s been over 700 jumps since I’ve done something dangerous like that and I’ve gotten almost 100 coached canopy jumps since then. Now I can look back and see what I should have known before trying certain things. Knowing how to properly set up for a swoop is probably more important that the hook turn itself. When you don’t know how to do that the right way you’re more likely to get target fixation and end up too low to safely do the turn.

Get coaching from more than one qualified person and ask a lot of questions… Be careful and don’t get hurt! We’ve got a huge season ahead of us this year. Let’s all make it through in one piece.

Just my take on the subject…

JZ

hexadecimalUser is Offline
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20 Apr 2007 12:15 PM Alert 
Posted By johnnyz on 17 Apr 2007 10:42 AM

I think that the high performance landing area should be just that… A “High Performance” landing area… Regardless of jump numbers. Somebody flying a 220 Manta that has 2500 jumps fits into faster traffic about as well as someone fresh off student status… Not very well.

It would be nice if people doing straight in landings would take it just a little bit south. I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be a minimum jump requirement to land in the HP area, I’m saying that people that have the jump numbers and aren’t doing HP landings don’t mix well with those that are swooping. (I’m not saying… I’m just saying… Ha ha ha) This is 2007 and swooping isn‘t going anywhere anytime soon.

 

 

While I myself don't yet land in that area, and don't have nearly the amount of experience Johnny does, I agree with him 100% on this and I'm glad someone brought it up.  I notice often that there are a large number of people who land in the high performance area just because they have the required number of jumps, even if they're jumping big, slow canopies and doing straight in landings.  Many times, these seem to be the same types of people (and I say types of people because I don't hear many SDC locals complaining about it) who complain that swoopers make things unsafe for them, when the fact is that they're only adding to the problem by refusing to land just a couple hundred feet south.  Even landing on the beer line, a task that shouldn't be difficult for someone with that amount of experience, would make things a lot safer for everyone, and might even make for a shorter walk back because they can walk straight into the south doors of the hangar.

I agree that something needs to be done in skydiving to keep further canopy collisions from happening, but it has to be a combined effort, rather than just the swoopers being demonized and forced to change, which seems to be the current trend.

mattchristensonUser is Offline
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20 Apr 2007 12:34 PM Alert 
(Just playing devil's advocate): Unfortunatly the High Performance area at SDC does, and will continue to see experienced jumpers with just over 500 jumps flying big canopies in straight approaches - tandem students. I have yet to see a Tandem fly a 270 approach into landing, but they're always sharing the same physical space. Only time separates these two drastically different landing styles; and on a busy weekend with two otters flying - times have the potential of overlapping -- then we have exactly the scenario that John suggested:

"I think that the high performance landing area should be just that… A “High Performance” landing area… Regardless of jump numbers. Somebody flying a 220 Manta that has 2500 jumps fits into faster traffic about as well as someone fresh off student status… Not very well."
johnnyzUser is Offline
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20 Apr 2007 12:53 PM Alert 

I wasn't talking about tandems.  They get out last and open above 5000 feet.  You'd pretty much have to do an altitude hop & pop and some aggressive canopy piloting to be landing when they are.

Mark LambersonUser is Offline
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25 Apr 2007 11:13 AM Alert 
Saying that regular jumpers don’t land at the same time as the tandems is not always true. Pilots do their best but communications sometimes fail, and we drop a load not knowing the one in front of us has tandems. It takes longer for a tandem, or student that opens at 5500ft to get on the ground. Causing the first group from the second airplane to land at the same time as the tandems.

Mark Lamberson
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25 Apr 2007 11:16 AM Alert 
This is certainly a loaded subject.

First there is really only one person who can ban anything at SDC. I assume that it would come down to a business decision: Are customers going to leave because swooping/hook turns are not allowed, are customers going to be lost because they feel the place is unsafe, or will students avoid it due to bad press?

For this discussion I define a high performance landing as anything more than a 120 to final. Anything more leaves too many blind spots.

You could liken this subject to discussing guns. Guns, like swooping don’t kill people, people and swoopers kill people . In a sterile environment (ie, no traffic, swoop pond, video people who land last, or the dreaded low pass) neither one is dangerous if done properly . However there are numerous human, and outside forces that cause them to be extremely unsafe when landing at the same time as the rest of the load. Especially when doing a high performance landing when there are other free thinking (or not, as the case may be) canopy pilots close by, irregardless of whether they are doing a high performance landing as well.

As far as segregating the landing area it will never fully resolve the situation. SDC is quite a busy training facility. It doesn’t matter how many times you tell a student they should not land somewhere, they will. Or worse yet, will they avoid it to their detriment? Heck, often there are non students that land far from where they intend to. Just watch swoop club sometime, no one ever misses a gate, right? (and they have the air to themselves.)

There are many swoopers who do their due diligence, clear the air, set up properly, and then make a go, no go decision. These are the ones who can swoop successfully and safely in the absence of an anomaly. It is unlikely, but even the most diligent can make mistakes, there are terms like “the blind spot” and “the corner” for a reason. Also it is usually not the good swooper who is involved in an incident/accident (although most weren‘t born a good swooper, there is always a learning curve). It is often someone without skills and discipline who is emulating their hero. These are the people who made the decision to swoop long before leaving the airplane.

While others from a load are in the air any high performance landing using more than a 120 to final is loaded with ways for anyone to make a mistake. Resulting in injured, or worse, friends and lots of bad press. The place for these landings is out of traffic.

The question that I see in this is; Should high performance landers be allowed to impose their “fun” on others safety? Should anyone have that right? I know my answer. What is yours?

Mark Lamberson

To quote a friend who does not jump much anymore: “I am more afraid of other skydivers than I am of skydiving.”
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